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Brandon Held - Life is Crazy
This podcast is designed to help with suicide prevention. That is the #1 goal! This is also a Podcast of perseverance, self-help, self-Improvement, becoming a better person, making it through struggles and not only surviving, but thriving! In this Podcast the first 25 episodes detail my life's downs and ups. A story that shows you can overcome poverty, abusive environments, drug and alcoholic environments, difficult bosses, being laid-off from work, losing your family, and being on the brink of suicide. Listen and find a place to share life stories and experiences. Allow everyone to learn from each other to reinforce our place in this world. To grow and be better people and help build a better more understanding society.
The early podcast episodes are a story of the journey of my life. The start from poor, drug and alcohol stricken life, to choices that lead to success. Discusses my own suicide ideations and attempt that I struggled with for most of my life. Being raised by essentially only my mother with good intentions, but didn't know how to teach me to be a man. About learning life's lessons and how to become a man on this journey and sharing those lessons and experiences with others whom hopefully can benefit from my successes and failures.
Hosting guests who have overcome suicide attempts/suicide ideations/trauma/hardships/difficult situations to fight through it, rise up, and live their best life. Real life stories to help others that are going through difficult times or stuck without a path forward, understand and learn there is a path forward.
Want to be a guest on Brandon Held - Life is Crazy? Send Brandon Held a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/brandonheld
Brandon Held - Life is Crazy
Episode 47: Spears to Tears: Why Men Can't Access Their Full Emotional Range with Dr. Vanderhorst
Dr. Gloria Vanderhorst reveals how our culture systematically restricts boys' emotional development despite being born with a broader emotional range than girls. She examines the lifelong impact of emotional conditioning on men's relationships and mental health.
• Boys naturally have a wider emotional range than girls, but cultural and maternal responses narrow this range from infancy
• Mothers unconsciously withdraw when boys express emotions outside maternal comfort zones, teaching boys to limit emotional expression
• Society prepares boys to be fighters and providers by systematically cutting off access to tender emotions
• Boys experience different treatment in early childhood settings – female teachers often struggle with boys' natural emotional and physical expression
• Academic systems disadvantage boys who emotionally mature later than girls but face identical expectations
• Men often have feelings they can't identify due to limited emotional vocabulary from years of conditioning
• Our brains store every experience we've ever had, including memories from early childhood and potentially genetic memories
• Accessing stored memories can help heal emotional injuries and expand emotional capacity
ttps://www.drvanderhorst.com/
Visit Brandon's website at brandonheld.com for life coaching services and follow on Instagram at bh_life_is_crazy or YouTube at BrandonHeld_lifeiscrazy for more content.
Want to be a guest on Brandon Held - Life is Crazy? Send Brandon Held a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/brandonheld
BrandonHeld.com iPad drawing for Life Coaching clients
Welcome.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Brandon Held. Life is Crazy and it's going to be a great day today. I'm very excited. My guest is a doctor and she has 50 years of experience working with preschoolers through adults. In her dynamic psychology practice, her current focus is on emotional development of men and boys and how the culture robs males of access to full range of emotions. She is the author of a New York Times bestselling journal book called Read, reflect, respond the Three R's of Growth and Change. And, of course, we're talking about none other than Dr Gloria Vanderhorst. How are you doing today, doctor?
Speaker 1:I am doing great, brandon, and thank you for that lovely introduction. That was sweet.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're very welcome and very much deserved, so you made it easy, all right, so I just want to get started right away. I know that you have been doing this for a long time and you have the same focus, really, that I do, which is helping for me young men and men going through a difficult time. You also include boys in that, which is perfectly fine, because we have mothers and fathers that listen to the podcast, so that's all good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just want you to give an overview of what you're. I really want to assure everybody in that audience that the emotions that they're experiencing and the struggle that they're having with expressing their own emotions is real, and we have caused that problem.
Speaker 2:And who is we?
Speaker 1:Oh, the culture as a whole. Okay, what most people don't realize is that little boys, infant boys, come into the world with a broader range of emotional expression than little girls do.
Speaker 1:I have three sons, little boys have a broader range of emotional expression than little girls do. But by and large, little boys are interacting with mothers, not fathers. They're interacting with mothers, and females have a narrower, have an emotional expression that's familiar to mother. Little boys go higher in intensity, they go lower in intensity. Mother's not comfortable with that, and so when the boy goes higher or the boy goes lower, mother spends less time with the boy. She withdraws, not that she does that intentionally.
Speaker 1:And I have friends who have raised sons. They don't have any daughters, they've raised sons. And I say this and they go oh, poor me. No, it's not poor.
Speaker 1:You right, you have no intent to do this to your child, but it is nature, it's an automatic reaction. You're familiar with feeling states in this range. So when your boy goes up in intensity you withdraw, you back off a little bit. When he goes down in intensity, you do the same thing. It's not comfortable, you don't know what to do with it. You take a breath, you wait until perhaps this will resolve.
Speaker 1:You don't interact with your little boy, and so before they can walk, and so before they can walk, they have been trained to narrow the range of emotional expression. Okay, and then we take them and maybe since the Stone Age right, we prepare them to go out and carry spears and hunt animals. We prepare them to fight, we use them to fight. They have been fodder in numerous wars and so in some ways, socially, because we have a sense that's really a part of the male expectation, we systematically cut off their access to tender emotions. We don't want them to cry, we don't want them to be anxious, we don't want them to be worried. We want them to be powerful, we want them to be worried.
Speaker 1:We want them to be powerful, we want them to be assertive, we want them to be really clear about who they are. So I tell people, go to a mall right, watch families interact with toddlers, with toddlers. The little girl who gets distressed in the mall runs up to mom and dad, they pick her up and they ask her what's wrong, what happened? The little boy runs up to mom and dad and they say to him what happened, what's wrong? If he gives a good enough response, happened, what's wrong? If he gives a good enough response, he'll get picked up and comforted. If he doesn't give a good enough response, he'll be turned around, go on back, get back out there it's.
Speaker 1:It is just so culturally ingrained in us that we limit the range of emotional expression that a boy can have, and then we want to marry them. I married one. I love him dearly, right, yes, but he was raised in this culture and so there's a limit to the range of emotional expression that he's comfortable with, because we've trained our men to not go into the softer range of emotion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just want to say I have so many different things going through my head of questions. I would want to ask you Ask your question. Yeah. So, for example, if you have a man with unchecked emotions, a man who is just losing control, that's dangerous.
Speaker 1:That's a dangerous combination.
Speaker 2:You aggressive, you mean anger unchecked, meaning you don't have control.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't have control of that aggressive you're applying the ones at the upper end of the range irritation, anger yeah excessive yeah, no, not the softer not the
Speaker 2:crying. Yeah, yeah, I understand putting a cap on that. I grew up around it. I saw it a lot of it was all charged. So I I get the fear of a man's unchecked anger emotions and why you would want to put that in check. But the other side of it I think this is Brandon speaking. That's why I want to get your point of view on it. I think, being a man who's on his fourth marriage and has been divorced three times and also had other relationships besides my marriages women a lot of times are unchecked in their emotions as well and they go a little bit out of control with the highs and the lows, like they can be super loving and amazing, the most wonderful creatures you've ever seen, and they can also be the most nasty, mean, stab, stab you in the heart type of people, and so they don't have that checked and so they look to men to be their rock, be the foundation, so they can have those emotional ranges.
Speaker 1:Is that?
Speaker 2:something you would agree with.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, definitely All right. So socially, we allow women to run the gamut. You can be the weak, wimpy, needy character that needs the strong guy to take care of you. Right, you can be the powerful, aggressive, nasty female that will run roughshod over every guy she runs into. We give women permission to run the full gamut. Okay, not men, right. Not men, all right. The reason that our jails are full of men is because we narrow their emotional expression to this hostile end of the continuum. They cannot express tenderness, softness, neediness, crying, wimpiness. Right, we make up these words for the softer end of the continuum. We don't call it tenderness, we call it wimpiness.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. Think about that.
Speaker 2:Now I'll say this For the record I have never been afraid to display those things.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 2:However, due to societal cultures, my own beliefs, I still limit how often that happens, because I'm supposed to be the rock, I'm supposed to be the head of the household, one that keeps us sturdy and everything strong. So I do let those emotions happen, but I don't let them happen that often.
Speaker 1:Right, that often, right, the majority of parents actually are so uncomfortable with those emotions in a boy that they train them out of the boy. I have a great example. Okay, let's hear it All, right. So my daughter is three. We have friends in the neighborhood who have a three-year-old boy. We're over visiting. The kids are playing very nicely in a part of the living room. My daughter takes the boy's favorite toy and will not give it back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nasty, she's nasty, she's cruel it's wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the adults are not paying any attention to this. We're talking, we're chatting, we're having our own fun, and the little boy gets distressed, complains she won't give it back, and so he starts to cry and he heads towards mom and dad to get help. Legitimate reasonable. Yes, absolutely, mom and dad to get help. As he's walking towards dad, dad takes the back of his hand and whacks him in the chest no lands him on his butt. Yes, all right. This is is a PhD adult male. That's insane, not an idiot, right.
Speaker 2:This is not an untrained.
Speaker 1:This is not an ignorant, all right, this is a brilliant adult male and he says stop crying, hits his kid in the chest and whacks him and lands him on his butt. Ok, we do that consistently to little boys. Maybe it wouldn't without that aggressiveness, yeah, but we do it. We either ignore their emotional expression or we tell them to stop ignore their emotional expression or we tell them to stop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's curious what he was expecting his son to do in that situation. Just take it. Just let someone mistreat him, and just take it, because the reverse of that is he does what a boy can do which is physically overpower a girl, maybe not so much when we're little, but as we get older and bigger, and we don't want that to happen. So what do you do? You have to call on someone that can come in and bring support and help.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that's yeah that's absolutely the right thing to go seek assistance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and his father taught him in that moment, seeking assistance is the wrong thing to do.
Speaker 1:Don't do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he has to figure out for himself how am I going to handle that, and he may not do that with the right answer, he may not do that the right way. So, yeah, that's a great example, very dangerous Wow.
Speaker 1:There's still this practical reason for millennia that we do have to send the male out to fight. We have a real opportunity to expose ourselves to the full range of feeling states for both men and women.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think even more practical in the current state of life, or I should say more recent state of life, where men had to go out into the corporate world and we have to be able to check our emotions at work. We can't be all those things at work. We have to be able to take it, check it and support our family and take care of our family. Obviously, the world's changing. Women are much more involved in the way the working world is going and all of that's changing. So it is curious to me how societal norms are going to change over time with the way life is going and the way things are processing and changing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think they are going to change. Some of the most recent things that you can read online about boys are about how far behind boys are academically at the beginning. We have an academic system where, honestly, emotionally, boys mature later than girls.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's been that way as long as we can remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, it's reality the way your brain is made, and so we put them in school at the same age, at the same time. We have the same expectations of them and boys struggle with that. Girls exceed, yes, and then we get irritated with the boys. My practice started with evaluating preschool boys, because preschools are run by females. Yes, they understand the girls. They can tolerate any kind of emotional stuff coming out of the girls. But the boys are physically more active. They have an emotional range that's a little wider than the girls. They have a little bit more high excitement, all right. They have a little bit more low in terms of irritation, and female teachers don't like that. They don't know what to do with it.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and I think what you're saying there is a lot of that is just selfish behavior. It's just I don't know how to handle this, so I'm going to make you adjust instead of myself adjusting Absolutely, and then so that's just how boys are taught to behave. I grew up with a single mother, not exactly single. I had a stepfather, but he wasn't a real dad. He worked on the railroad. He was gone days a week.
Speaker 1:He was gone a lot.
Speaker 2:And he was an alcoholic and physical abuser of my mother not me personally, but it just was an awful situation, but all my guidance was from my mother.
Speaker 1:Was from a female.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she didn't necessarily check my emotions, but the way she handled me, which was guilt trips she always made me feel guilty for her and made me feel sorry for her. It made me feel like I didn't have the capacity to be difficult or have problems, because she had so many that I couldn't bring any, we're bigger, so you had to just stop yours.
Speaker 1:You have to just squash right your emotional needs and that's completely unfair and we do that repeatedly to boys. We're uncomfortable with a boy having emotions below neutral. Right, you could be neutral, but if you're needy, if you're irritated, if you're unhappy, we don't like that, right, we don't want to hear that from you and it's tragic, right? Because then we expect you to grow up, get married to male or female makes no difference. We expect you to have emotional intelligence, yes, and to be able to express yourself. Totally impossible, just absolutely totally impossible. It's the most ridiculous expectation that we have of the opposite sex. Ridiculous expectation that we have of the opposite sex. Yeah, you expect that.
Speaker 2:If I cut off your access to the lower range of emotions, why would you expect that when you get married, you can be tender, gentle, needy, ridiculous yeah, and I was going to say that one of the hardest lessons I learned in my life that I wasn't taught and I think I saw you talk about it on your website or something and that is that holding in my pain, my struggle, because I was attempting to be the strong man, the strong husband actually just drove me and my wife farther apart because I was going through things that she didn't understand.
Speaker 2:She didn't know why, and so to her it just made me look bad in the end, because I'm feeling a certain type of way and she doesn't understand why. And so she starts getting in her own head and starts thinking is it me, what am I doing, or what's going on, whatever goes through her mind. And so she starts getting in her own head and starts thinking is it me, what am I doing, or what's going on, whatever goes through her mind. And the best thing I ever could have had done was just share what I'm feeling and what I'm going through, but I didn't want to put that burden on her and that was the way I saw it was putting that burden on her.
Speaker 1:That's a lovely explanation, right? You really didn't want to put that burden on the other person.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so often all right. Men also have feelings that they can't clearly identify. They know they're heavy, right, they know they're important, but in terms of articulating it, what am I actually experiencing? They have a very limited emotional vocabulary.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I have a three-page, three or four-page list of human emotions. I send it out to people and say laminate this, put it on on the kitchen table, put it in the living room so that if you're talking to your spouse they can scan through that and immediately they will recognize that's what I'm feeling. I'm feeling, but it isn't a word I would have generated for myself. Sure, the beauty of a human brain is that we hold everything. So your brain knows absolutely every feeling a human being is capable of. We hold it. I cannot produce it, but if you give me a sheet of paper that has feeling words on it, man, I can find it right away and then we can have a conversation. I'm feeling dismissed, right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Wow, lordy.
Speaker 2:I have the perfect example in my own life. I have three sons, but my two youngest sons are with my ex wife and one's about to be 18 soon and the other one's about to be 16. And by and large, the older one was always more well-behaved, did better in school. More well behaved, did better in school, was more well behaved. His mother almost expected him to be perfect because he was those things. So if he acted up even a little bit, she jumped his ass, she was all over him. Meanwhile, my youngest was given free range to just be whatever he was, and so now they're reaching adulthood, they're nearing adulthood, and so now my older son is very limited in his range of emotions, and my youngest son, he's everything. He gets angry at will, he cries at, will, he shows all the ranges because he was given that freedom, and it's just. It's mind boggling to me that how much control she had over who they have grown up to become.
Speaker 1:That's right. Mothers have incredible influence. So, as I said, it starts in infancy. Mother is the reason that we narrow the range of feeling expression that a boy can have and, as they continue to grow and interact, mother's discomfort with different feeling states plays a real, important role in the choice that the boy makes in terms of his own expression.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's a couple of things I want to make sure we get out there on this podcast, and one of the questions is I have been someone that intrinsically inside has always wanted to grow and become a better man and be the best person. I can be by far not perfect, have made plenty of mistakes in my life, but my objective has always been to learn and grow and become better. I noticed not everyone has that inside of them, so how can a a person challenge themselves to grow?
Speaker 1:So one of the ways that I currently encourage persons to challenge themselves is to get the book that I have made and published, which is a series of essays, and in the book the essay is on one page. The facing page is blank, instead of having lines on it. Most journal books have lines on it. They expect you to respond in language. Guess what? We represent our feeling states in many other ways than language. Yeah, and so the facing page is blank. It has a couple of little stimulating questions to it, but the facing page is blank so that people can react with motion, they can react with intensity, they can react with scribbling, they can draw pictures, they can write if they want. I'm not gonna limit your ability to use language, but we house so much of our feeling states in forms other than language. I need to be able to draw, to use intensity, to scribble to. If you want to tear the page, feel free to tear the page.
Speaker 2:So let me ask you this, because since I've been doing podcasting, I've come across a lot of people that write books. I am personally not someone that reads books. I don't have the attention span to read a book. My 18 year old son doesn't have an attention span to read a book. Our minds wander off and we won't remember anything we have read. And sometimes you can continue doing that, cycle over and over you, back up, you start reading again, you get lost again and so you just give up. You quit reading. I wish people would understand more how necessary audio books are for people.
Speaker 1:Audios are fabulous, right? This book also comes in audio and the lovely part about an audio whether you buy the audio book or you have somebody take this, the essay just fills one page, so only the number of words that can fit on one page. It's not extensive. Or have somebody read it to you and then do your own reaction to it to it, because your brain has these parts and pieces and it can trigger pieces that you never would have guessed exist there. Our brain holds everything and we also know that genetically our brain has the past three generations genetically, so we can also have memories that are from one of the three past generations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, I couldn't imagine. I haven't experienced that part. But what I did experience was and I've talked these flashes of memory in my mind not pieced together to form a scene, but just little bits and pieces, and I thought it was a dream or something I made up in my mind, and then finally, at one point in adulthood, it all came together and it made a scene. It made something I remembered, and so I brought that to my mother and I asked her about it and what it was is.
Speaker 2:I never knew my biological father, but when I was a toddler he came to my house where we lived and he pulled my mom out of the shower and started beating on her right in front of me. And I remember the green couch. I remember the wood paneling wall. I remember my mom flying over a couch. I remember all of that and I thought it was a dream, and so I brought it up to my mom and she was just oh my God, I can't believe. You remember that. You were two years old when that happened and, yeah, I can totally vouch for what you're saying about storing those memories.
Speaker 1:Your brain keeps everything. Yeah, Fabulous, Fabulous. I had a client who, as a let's see, she was eight or nine and she was having was actually an experience that her great-grandmother yeah, that's wild, that's mind-blowing weird.
Speaker 2:You hear people talk about that stuff on tv and you think it's how far-fetched. You know how funny, what a joke. But no, it's real. But when they're talking about it, yeah, yeah, it's real to them. They truly believe that it's real. Yeah, I've never experienced anything like that. It would be cool, though. For sure it's cool, but what you did.
Speaker 1:Experience is very similar to that. Rationally, we would think at that young an age. You would not hold on to that memory.
Speaker 2:Right. You think it would be just you'd think that guy would be buried and you'd never find it Right. It's there. Yeah, I didn't even think it was real myself, so only my own mother's confirmation of it made it real to me.
Speaker 2:Until then, I wasn't sure where the heck those images were coming from. All right, so yeah, I think another big important thing to talk about is something a lot of people struggle with in recent years. In our society, it's finally being talked about and being understood and people are being more educated on it, and that is what role mental health plays in every part of our lives. I just want to give you a chance to talk about that it is everywhere, as we just said.
Speaker 1:Right, we're born connected to another human being and we spend the rest of our lives seeking connection to other human beings. That's the reason that children who are adopted at birth go looking for their birth parents. It is just a part of the genetic plan in our brains. Right, we are seeking understanding and connection and we have to do it right. There's no way to stop us. Right, we really want to understand who we are, where we fit in the world, how we're connected to other people, and that's always going to be the case. Right, we're going to seek out information about ourselves.
Speaker 1:Honestly, everything that you've ever experienced is packed away here. Right, this brain is very complicated. It's full, full, tons of data. Right, some of it is housed in language, some of it is housed in motion, some of it is housed in just intensity and feeling states. It's all there, right, and if we open ourselves up to that reality that our brain holds these things, we can access them, we can benefit from them, we can apply them to how we interact with other people in the environment around us. We can heal from things. We all have injuries.
Speaker 1:Every human being has emotional injuries and if I can access it, I can heal from it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so that brings me to my next question how do people access it? We all know that we have a brain full of stuff that we don't remember 90% of what's in our brain. I'm just throwing that number out there. I don't know that it's real, but but but joke with my kids. I've done forgotten more than they know. It's just true. And so one of the things I wish I could do is recall things that I can't remember, bring that stuff back into my memory, and I noticed that there are a lot of people, myself included. We shut something down and we suppress something for a long time, and then, at some point in life, it comes back, whether advertently or inadvertently. Something just jogs our mind and helps us remember. Is there any science behind how you can access those parts of your memory?
Speaker 1:I think there's a therapeutic tool that comes very close to facilitating pieces of history that you have stored and that influence you in the present, but you're not really aware of how they've influenced you. So it's a very supportive system. It says every part of you is valuable, every part of you has significance, it has meaning to it. Right, you can open yourself up to welcoming it. It right, you can open yourself up to welcoming it. And, regardless of what that piece of history is, you can develop a relationship to that piece of history that releases any damage that's been done by the injury that someone else has visited on you the injury that someone else has visited on you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great stuff. I love women. So I want to tell a joke that the great comedian who has passed his name's Greg Giraldo. The most pain I've ever felt in my life by far has come from women. It just has. That's the story of my life. But I love women. I love my mom, I love my wife. I get along with women fabulously, I love them all. But Greg Geraldo had this joke and he said there was this guy and it's a true story, but he made it into a joke. There was this guy that got struck by lightning seven times, seven times, and didn't die't die, and then later he committed suicide over a woman. So greg joke was god couldn't kill this guy, so he sent in the professional. Yeah, he sent in a professional. I think you're right on target. Yeah, yeah, no, it's his joke. I can't take credit for it, but it does feel like it hits close to home. Yeah, I identify with that, it does because women and men are different.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So the very fact that this female interacts with a baby boy and cuts off the upper range, cuts off the lower range Wow, you guys are doomed from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, this has been phenomenal and I appreciate everything you have shared with us today. So, in closing, is there any final thing you want to say and how people can reach you and get in touch with you for your services?
Speaker 1:They could find me through my website, which is wwwd-r-v-a-n-d-e-r-h-o-r-s-tcom, so it's wwwdrvanderhorstcom. On that website you'll find ways to find time on my calendar. You'll find video resources. You'll find all the blogs that are right. You'll find access to my book Read, reflect, respond Three R's of Growth and Change, and I am in the process of completing a book about men and boys. It's aimed at helping fathers know how to do a better job of raising their boys.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great, and I hope you make that into an audio book, as we talked about. Yeah, and I do also know you have links that are helpful that lead people to other sites as well, because I was on there and I saw that as well, and I will put your website link in the transcripts of the episode so people will be able to click on it or, at the very least, copy and paste into the site. And so thank you for being here today. Thank you for that great information, and before I close, I have some information I want to give as well, and that is go to brandonheldcom. And if you need life coaching not therapy, because they're two very different things If you need life coaching, I am available for those services and I also am currently having a drawing for giving away an iPad for anyone that signs up for my services. So if you're interested in that, go to Brandon healthcom, check it out.
Speaker 2:Also, please follow me on Instagram. I'm new on there. I'm trying to build my following of listeners and it's bh underscore life underscore is underscore crazy. Please follow me there and let me know you followed me from my podcast and I will follow you back. I definitely do believe in returning the love. And finally, I have a YouTube page and it's just Brandon, held underscore life is crazy. That's focused on my life coaching. I give videos ranging anywhere from three minutes to 10 minutes discussing a life coaching topic information there. So if you want to follow me on youtube, that would be great as well. Thank you again, dr vanderhorst, for being here.
Speaker 1:I've enjoyed it, brandon, you Thank you.
Speaker 2:So are you. I really appreciate all the information you have provided to help everyone, and that's what we're here to do. We're here to help, so that's my biggest goal. I just said this yesterday to a friend of mine the biggest compliment I can ever receive and hope to ever receive will be someone reaching out to me one day and saying, brandon, your podcast saved my life.
Speaker 2:If just one person says that to me, that'll make everything that I've done for this podcast worth it. So that's what I'm looking for and that's going to be a wrap for this episode, and this has been Brandon Held. Life is crazy, and I'll talk to you next time.
