Brandon Held - Life is Crazy

Episode 80: From Rock Bottom To PodMatch THE Alex Sanfilippo

• Brandon Held • Season 4 • Episode 80

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We trace Alex’s journey from kid entrepreneur to corporate leader to founder of PodMatch, and share how a crash reshaped purpose, faith, and resilience. We also talk creator sustainability, paying podcasters, and why fitness and clear values fuel better work and better shows.

• early hustles, self-awareness, and supportive family
• the real estate crash and redefining rock bottom
• finding faith, community, and a path in corporate
• spotting podcast pain points and validating demand
• launching PodMatch to match guests and hosts
• sharing revenue with hosts to offset production cost
• creator sustainability, audience support, and patience
• standing firm on values without ego
• fitness as energy, focus, and leadership edge
• the principle that what got you here won’t get you there

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Find Brandon at brandonheld.com for links, podcasts, and YouTube 
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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome back to Branded Held Life is Crazy. And today is a day I've been looking forward to for some time now since we scheduled this. And uh I have Mr. Alex San Filippo on the program today. I'm very excited to talk to Alex. Um he may not know this, but he I have a lot of respect for him already just based off of who he is and what he's done in the podcasting community. And uh can't wait to get his life story and his take on what's going on with PodMatch uh and just the podcasting community in general. So how are you doing today, Alex?

SPEAKER_01:

Brandon, I'm great, and thank you so much for having me. And then real quick, just because what you just mentioned, I just gotta say it up front, but thank you for your time and service in the Air Force and the Army. Seriously means a lot to me as a U.S.-based civilian my entire life. So thank you for the uh freedom that you fought for, and uh seriously means a lot, man. It's an honor to be here today.

SPEAKER_00:

I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Um in, you know, since you brought that up, this is a total sidebar. I'm just glad that the that's the way this country has gone. I'm sure you remember back, or you'd have you probably heard about, not remember, but back in the Vietnam War era, you know, veterans would come back and Americans hated them and you know, treated them awful and all that. And and I'm just really happy that the country has made an effort to respect and understand what veterans deal with and what they have to go through and people showing appreciation for that. So thank you for being a part of that as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I think that's important. Um here here's the reason. Like, I've always been someone who's just kind of brought up that way that we respect the people that fought for the freedom. Like, I'm not running to a bunker every day, and I I have friends that literally that is their life. It's maybe not every day, but it's very regularly, that's a common part of their life. For me, what really though set into motion is when I became a full-time entrepreneur. I realized, I'm like, man, I'm enabled to do this because this country is safe and protected and our resources can go toward people like me who are trying to start a business versus hey, we're trying to all survive, right? And so again, I just think that, like you said, I I think it's really good that we're in a space where the country understands that, like, no, the people that are veterans, the people that are active military, the people that are serving the country in that way are enabling the rest of us to live, in many ways, a very comfortable life, even if we're doing uncomfortable things like entrepreneurship, it's still a lot easier than many alternatives. So I I know that's not our point of what we're talking about today, but I think it is very important to highlight.

SPEAKER_00:

No, you're right. But I'm a veteran and you know, talking about veteran issues and just military and and and appreciating and understanding America is the greatest country on earth, period. If you may not like the president or some of the things our government is doing, the one thing they're doing right is protecting this country. There's there is no way, you know, we go invade other countries in war when we battle them and fight. Nobody's coming to invade America. I promise you that, right? This country is so well defended, uh, both from missiles or any other attacks. It's just not happening. So, you know, they have to get their onesie-twosies in by getting individuals across the the border and and letting them do whatever they can do. And don't get me wrong, what they did to the Twin Towers in New York was devastating and damaging. Uh, but it's also not a nuclear missile, you know. So uh you do live in the best country on the planet, and I really hope people recognize that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, me too. I think it's an important thing to to talk about and just remember. I mean, I it's like anything when you're in it, it's kind of easy to forget, right? Because you just you just live in it, right? So, or it's I don't know. I remember the first time I had a friend get in my car who wasn't, I guess, as well off as my family was, and he was blown away that we had AC in our car. We live in Florida, yeah. And I was like, what? He's like, Yeah, you're not like not sweating in your car. I'm like, oh yeah, I should be thankful for that, right? Like, it's one of those things you're you get into it so much that you kind of just forget. It's very easy just to overlook in many ways. So anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

For sure, yeah. Um, thanks for thanks for bringing that up, and that's a that's a good little sidebar to start the show. For sure. Um, so yeah, but I'm gonna do the same thing with you that I do with everyone else. I have no clue. You know, with most people, we've had a little conversation about what their life was like prior to the way it is now and stuff like that. But you and I haven't had that conversation. I know that uh you're pretty much, you know, what I see from you, always a happy, go-lucky, good mood kind of guy. Doesn't mean you are always that guy because nobody is always one thing. So um I would love to hear, you know, tell me about your childhood in Florida and what that was like and how that made you evolve into the young man you became.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, sure. Uh lakes, golf, and alligators, those are real, real things down here in Florida. Um actually, when I was a kid, I I was kind of an odd kid when I was growing up. Uh, very self-aware. Not like I've always been like a very happy person just naturally, so I wasn't like upset about it, but I was very self-aware to the point where I realized that the friends I was hanging out with, even my my siblings, my brothers, that I I wasn't as athletic as any of them. Uh my brothers were all incredible musicians, and I just didn't have that talent. Everyone was good at video games at that point, and this is like the 90s, so N64 was our our system of choice, and and everyone was everyone was good at it except for me. Uh and then school, I struggled with. So I was like, all right, something in right, you know, like something is not working for me. Like I'm clearly a bit of an outliner. Again, it wasn't something that was like depressing me or upsetting me. And as a 10-year-old kid, it's probably kind of weird to even be able to recognize that I was different than those around me. Uh I just knew I hadn't found my thing yet. And I bring up uh alligators and and golf and lakes for specific reasons because one day uh me and a bunch of kids in the neighborhood were playing on the golf course across the street from the neighborhood we were in. And that's because all the parents said don't play on the golf course. So obviously, Brandon, all the kids run straight to the golf course every single day, right? So playing football on it because we didn't play golf or anything like that. But I can remember um seeing at the edge of a lake a golf ball. I picked it up and I just kind of was like playing with it, and a golfer rode by on a cart and just yelled at me. He goes, Hey kid, what does that golf ball say on it? Turn around and it's it I just yelled back, I'm like, it says title is pro v1. He goes, I'll give you three dollars for it. So I gave him the golf ball, he gave me three dollars, and this was the first time a light bulb went off. And I was like, wait a minute, I've never been given three dollars for anything in my life. I'm like, are there more golf balls in these lakes? And can we get them? So I kind of brought all the kids together, like me being one of them, we're all about the same age, 10 to 12 years old, probably. And we just built out the system that on Tuesdays and Thursdays we're gonna go through the lakes and try to dodge the alligators and grab all the golf balls. Thankfully, no one ever had any any issue there. But we then we clean them up on Fridays and then Saturday mornings we'd we'd sell them. We'd go post up at the golf course and sell them. And we built a great little business, and I just kind of naturally stepped in as the leader. Like no one ever said that, but everyone just kind of followed the whole idea of building out a system for it, it made sense to me. And what do you know? As a 10-year-old kid, very self-aware and very weird, I kind of learned that hey, I'm actually pretty good at this this business thing. Like that might be my thing. And and fast forward through uh, like listen, that wasn't a legitimate business. Like I didn't pay any taxes to Uncle Sam. Like, I didn't even know what that was at that point, right? Right. But uh I did that for a couple years as a kid, and then I got into um the early days of a website called eBay, uh, where there was it was all auctions back then. It's changed quite a bit. But back then, it was auctions. I just learned how to bid properly, how to sell properly, and I I just enjoyed that as a kid using my dad's credit card once again on a legitimate business. But when I got into high school, I got into some real some real business. I actually started like a real company, like had an LLC, I was paying taxes, all that. And that was kind of just me getting into it. I can share more about that, of course, but I know we wanted to focus on the childhood side of things. That was kind of me. I never got really good at school. I struggled my entire way through. I'm thankful to have graduated high school. But even when I started trying college classes, I wasn't good at it. Like I just realized that business was kind of my thing, and it's what I enjoyed. And so my whole childhood was kind of that. And of course, tons of fun memories just playing outside and stuff like that. I did a lot of that as a kid.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so the the the underlying unspoken thing here is though, like you had good parents, the home life was good, you were able, like, if these are the things you're clearly focused on, you you're not having other issues or other problems in life. So, so that's good news. Um, so you know, those are the thing yeah, I envy childhoods like that because you know that's picturesque. You got to focus on being a kid and focus on developing and focusing on who you are today versus you know other issues that kids shouldn't have to deal with because they have home problems and problems at home. So it's a good point.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, it it real quick, it makes me think just what I said earlier. Like sometimes you're so in it you kind of forget. And for me, it's something that I forget. Like, I'm extremely grateful, and I probably don't tell my parents enough, but I had a really good upbringing. They were very supportive. They understood that I wasn't great at school, they pushed me the right amount, they didn't push me too much, right? Like, but they pushed me the right amount to keep me going, and it's ultimately the reason I graduated. But uh, they were always supportive. Oh, you want to try this business thing? Sure. Like, what else can we do, right? And so I I am very, very grateful, and I I acknowledge right now that that really set me on the track that I'm on. Like it's most of what any of us achieve in life is very rarely just us, right? There's someone in our corner that's helping, and I'm I am very grateful, and I don't didn't mean to brush over it, to have a very great supportive uh parents, and I have three younger brothers, they've always been very supportive of me as well. So just like a very tight-knit family that has been, again, supportive and and I'd say functional to as much as a family can be functional, right? So I I I am glad that you brought that up, Brandon, because I think that that is really important, and that really did help me a lot.

SPEAKER_00:

No, I I agree, and uh you didn't really gloss over it, you were just telling your story, and and you, you know, your story you know which made it obvious to me, right? What what was happening in the background may not be obvious to everyone else, so I just wanted to point that out for other people who didn't quite, you know, catch what was going on there. And yeah, definitely as a father of three, definitely let your parents know how much you appreciate them as much as you can. It doesn't matter how old you get. Um, you know, my oldest is 27. I would love to hear appreciation from him all the time, but yeah, it's not how it goes. So uh parents love that. All right.

SPEAKER_01:

Did you just write it down? I know we gotta move on with the conversation. I wrote it down after this. I'm gonna tell my mom and dad thank you. So that was because of you, Brandon, the thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

All right. Yeah. Make sure you let them know. I'm I helped you.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, they're like this crazy guy.

SPEAKER_00:

So um, oh, excuse me. Um so you you uh you get the entrepreneurial shit bug at a young age, and you feel that coming, and you you do some things. eBay, I remember when eBay was an auction site back in the day. And um what happens from when you graduate high school? Do you go to college or do you think that's not a thing for you? What happens there?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, well, my last few years of high school, I not that I wasn't focused on school, like I still did okay. I just never got good at it. Like I and I was the the student that tried a lot, especially up through my junior up through my till my junior year of high school. Like till my junior year, I tried it like as hard as I could. And at that point, not that I stopped, but I I got into a technology startup, was good on computers, and back then that was still kind of rare for people to be good on computers. So I got the opportunity to start working as a software company was building virtual tours of homes, which now you go to some of those websites where you buy homes or or look at them and you can kind of like drag the mouse around, look at different rooms and yeah, see the different views. But but back then we pioneered that technology, and so I had I had a staff, I had editors, and I had photographers, and we were working directly with the MLS and posting stuff to it on a daily basis, and that did really, really well. So for me, like I was still like quote unquote a high school student, right? But I was really focused on that. And so my last couple years of school, I still did as good as I could because I just really struggled with it, but I had a business that was thriving. Uh, and then so I I again really focused on that. So college was definitely put off. I did end up starting by stopped really quick. Uh I'll just fast forward a couple years. I graduated in 2006 and 2008 is when everything crashed, right? Like it was a serious recession. I was someone who was all in on real estate. I had proper, I was like investing in buy and hold property, and I was uh running this this technology startup. Both those things completely crashed and burned. I mean, completely crashed and burned. So much so people were like, Did you did you exit that? Sure. If you mean by give it to one of the guys who wanted to keep it going, that's all I did. There was no value in it. There was nothing. And so I was like, here, this is for you. If you want to keep on running with it, the person saw vision. I don't even know what they ended up doing with it. I kind of never looked back at that. But uh at that point, I was like, okay, well, now I'm not a successful entrepreneur. Like, and I I really had ambitions. I wanted to be a Forbes 30 under 30. Like, that was like my vision. I was like, real estate's gonna get me there, I'm gonna be on track, I got an early start, like I'm gonna do this really well. And uh I went from that to the guy who's now jobless in a ton of debt, more than debt, more debt than anyone I knew at my age. And I actually felt very friendless at that point in my life. Like I felt like I didn't have anybody because the friends I was around, the people I started hanging out with, were other very ambitious entrepreneurial type people, right? But they really disappeared when the money disappeared, or they had their own struggles and troubles, including the relationship I was in, kind of gone when the nice car was gone, type of situation, right? Like it, I just that was the absolute rock bond of my life. And I ended up getting a part-time job, and uh it was at an aerospace company, and I wasn't doing anything interesting, I wasn't an astronaut, skydiver, fighter pilot, like I wasn't any of those things. I was breaking down boxes to take out people's trash. It was part-time, it's all I had. And I I decided to enroll in in uh my local uh my local university, uh, I guess sorry, the the state college that was in my my town. And uh I I did one class, hated it, failed it, and I was like, okay, well, I don't have any money anyway, like so. I guess I I don't know what I'm gonna do. And so that was for me like a very pivotal point in my life. I went from entrepreneur to now a part-time employee of a of a I guess just a corporate America type company. So it was a very different, a big shift for me during those years.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, um tough time for sure. And uh, you know, that's it's good. I'm glad that you use the words my rock bottom, you know, because it doesn't always have to be when someone says rock bottom, like you're homeless, you're you know, ready to commit suicide. It doesn't always have to be that. Everyone's rock bottom is their story, it's their reality. So I'm I'm glad that you used that term because you for you, your world was flipped upside down, and that's what matters, right? That was a tough time for you. It was for everyone, but um, and I'm curious what aerospace company. I worked for Raytheon for some years, so I was just curious what aerospace company you worked for.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's a company called EIC. Uh pretty boring. It's it's all about like we were parts manufacturers. We actually bought from from you guys and worked for you guys sometimes. That's all world type. I mean, aerospace is one of those industries that like looks big, but there's really only a handful of companies in it, type of thing, right? So that's that's pretty funny. You know, yeah, listen, uh, to your point there, like I know like suicide prevention is extremely important to you and to this show, Brandon. And I and I really admire that. For me, that type of thing never came up, but like you said, everyone's rock bottom is their own. And for me, rock bottom happened when I felt that my purpose disappeared. Forbes 30 under 30 was my purpose at that point, which I will now say was not a good purpose, but we can have bad purposes stuck in our mind, right? Like it wasn't, it it lacked depth. But the thing is, I was I was incredibly alone at that point in my life. Like I I literally felt like I'd wake up and I was there was no one there, and there was not going to be anyone there. Because I wasn't in a relationship or anything like that, it was because I just felt that there is nobody I can tell how I'm feeling right now. And so I I won't say that like it hit the point of like any suicidal thoughts, but I know that that is a gateway for many, many people. And if someone feels alone, like you know better than I do, Brandon, like there are people that you can reach out to. I mean, your podcast is is I mean, absolutely a beautiful thing to go listen to to hear people's stories about how that they they found freedom, right? So but I do just want to acknowledge it, like it can it can be serious regardless of if it sounds serious to someone else, like it already well, yeah, and it it it all matters though, even though you maybe weren't um suicidal or whatever.

SPEAKER_00:

You had a great support system around you, you know, you had great parents, great family, all that, and it sucks losing your career, your job, your purpose, your girlfriend, right? Uh I don't know if you believe that everything happens for a reason. Uh I'm sure you grew a lot from that in multiple ways. I'm sure you respect and appreciate things that you have now that maybe you didn't quite as much before, right? Wouldn't that be fair to say?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah. I I look back at that time, and and although like I've I've referenced it as my rock bottom, it is the time in my life I'm most thankful for now.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Which which sounds so weird, but like at that point, like I found my faith, so I'm a follower of Jesus, and like I found that during that time. I for that's what caused me to no longer feel alone. And so for me, like that that was the biggest thing that that I could have ever found during that time. But I I found real friends, I found real community, and I found that I'm actually pretty good at working a nine to five job, actually. Like I ended up moving from part-time to to full-time fairly quickly and and work my way up. I I was actually at that company for 15 years before I got back to entrepreneurship. Wow. And I loved it. It was a blast. I had a great time, but I would have never even retained that had this not happened. Wouldn't have found my faith, wouldn't have found so many great friends I still have today, wouldn't have found the career that ultimately led me to what I'm doing today. So I look back at that time as the most important time of my life, and now a time that I'm most grateful for. Of course, when you're in it, there's not a thankful word happening, right? But now I look back, I'm like, that was that was the hour, that was the moment that led me to who I am today.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And that's that's a that's a great point, and that's the point I wanted to make. So, you know, we must someone might be listening to this or watching this that's in that space right now. And what they need to understand is there are countless stories of people who were in their own rock bottom, and they got out of it, and not only got out of it, they lived a better life for it, and are living a better life for it. And that's really the point that I want people to understand and to drive home with people because whatever you're dealing with now, remember it's a moment in time. If you if you take the right steps and you do the right things, it will all come back around and it will serve you and it will make your life better. Perfect examples for. For you, Alex. You know, I was in the same situation uh multiple times in life. And the you know, the last time I was at my I don't even know what point I call rock bottom because I felt like I had a few in life. Um, but I would say my most recent rock bottom is when I was ready to give up, and I'm generally a happy, go lucky person like yourself. Um, you know, life has chipped it way away at me a little bit and beat me down a little bit, and uh, I'm not as happy go-lucky as I used to be, and that's sad. I recognize that for myself, and it's sad. Uh, but what I do know is I am living my best life, and I have an amazing wife that I couldn't be happier with, and what it does allow me to do is really truly appreciate everything that I have, because at times I had nothing and nobody. So that's what people need to remember. It's just a moment in time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I really respect your transparency uh about that, Brandon. Like, it's it's just cool to hear from somebody that I know that somebody was look up to you, my myself included. So it's just cool to hear that, like, hey, like it's not always perfect, right? Like, and you know, when you're saying this, like it's a moment in time, yeah. Like today I I was at my gym and my trainer had me doing um 30 seconds on the 10 second break, so there's like a timer, and it was like I don't remember, I think I was doing burpees or something like that, which is a terrible thing to do for 30 seconds in a row, right? But I can remember like thinking like this is the longest 30 seconds of my life, and then your 10 second break feels like nothing. I'm like, I didn't even get a chance to take a breath, right? And I think that for many of us, that for the the listeners today, the people that are tuning in, and you feel like you're in that 30 seconds, and that 10 seconds is still like so far off, yeah, it feels that way. When it's over, though, you do you do get stronger from it. It does suck in the moment. And I to think to steal a military term, but embracing the suck, sometimes what you've got to do. I go back to that story. I didn't have like an overnight shift of like today was terrible, worst day of my life, next day was the best, right? Like this was a transition over many, many months, even probably closer to a year. But the reality was it was like, you know what, this sucks. I'm developing the character within that I need for tomorrow so I can become the person I'm supposed to become. It's one step at a time, one step at a time. Find something to be thankful for today, find something to not cry about today, right? Like just get through it. And so I I think for so many of us, like uh, Brandon, I don't mean to make it sound like, oh, it's just like it's just so quick, right? Like it might it might be when you turn, like when you look back, but while you're in it, it feels like forever. But it's developing that character, it's developing that muscle that you need. Embrace this up, go through it. I think that there's something to be said for those of us that get up to the other side of it in the way that we're able to bring someone else, pick someone else up to where we are and help them through it ourselves.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and and we really need to impress that upon people and have people genuinely understand that because when you are going through it, you can hear these things, right? I also have faith and I was relying on my faith. Yeah, I was unemployed for almost four years the last time I got laid off. And all I'm doing is praying to God regularly, like, you know, I know you're making me go through this for a reason, but how long am I gonna have to go through this? Right? That's that was the question I kept asking him. And, you know, all I can say in the end was as long as he felt like I needed to, to when I got through to the other side to really appreciate what I had. And I am like you, I'm happy I went through it. Uh, it was horrible at the time, it sucked, and I wished I wasn't going through it, but now that I'm through it and my life is the best that it's ever been, and I have just myself personally a greater outlook on life, a greater appreciation for everything that I have in life. I needed that, and so um, that's what people need to remember. Whatever it is, whatever they're going through, it will make you better.

SPEAKER_01:

If you don't want me asking a question, Brandon, um, do you feel like that's helped you become more empathetic? Like seeing someone maybe who's hasn't had a job almost just say like a year or two, like are you do you think that like you have more empathy toward them and understand a little bit more because of what you've been through? Or do you not really process it that way?

SPEAKER_00:

No, I think emp so so these kind of marry for me. Okay, so when you talk about having an education versus not having an education, for example, I have an MBA, I feel like I couldn't have gotten as far in life as I have without it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the path I went, that's what I know. I also feel like not everyone needs an education to be successful, right? So empathy is kind of the same thing for me. Sometimes I feel empathetic towards people when they go through things and they're dealing with things, and and then sometimes I see what people are doing in their behavior and I feel like they're bringing it on themselves. So then I'm less empathetic. Then I'm more well, you should you need to start looking inward as a human being and and start making different choices. That's good.

SPEAKER_01:

I actually I I like that a lot. I've never heard anyone kind of give that answer to that question. People are like, Yeah, I think I'm more empathetic, but the reality is I think that you're just you're real with what you're able to see because of your own experience, and you're gonna call it out because sometimes people need that in today's world, especially. We're a little too passive. So I actually really like I respect the answer a lot. Man, that's good. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks. So let's talk about this hot topic then. I'm sure, I'm sure you've seen it. Um, the Phillies home run baseball that the guy caught it and the woman came over and kind of gave him the business and took it from him. Did you see that? Do you know about this?

SPEAKER_01:

Wait, was this recent?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I totally I missed this.

SPEAKER_00:

You must not be on social medias or anything.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm not on it too much, but uh, explain it real quick. This will give context for everybody. I want to update it.

SPEAKER_00:

So, okay, so it's a Phillies baseball game, and you know, one of the batters hits a home run, and you know how people crowd around to catch the ball as it's coming over the wall. And this guy caught it, right? And he took it and he walked over to his seat to his 10-year-old son, I believe, and he gave him the ball, all happy, you know, proud to be, hey, I caught my son a home run ball at a Phillies game. And then this lady, I don't know, she looks like she's in her 50-ish, you know, 50s, my around my age. She follows him over and like, you stole my ball. That ball was hit to my section. That ball belongs to me, right? So the way this guy reacted, first of all, when she went over and tapped him, he was like, like the way he, yeah, it was so feminine the way he reacted. And and then he ends up giving her the ball and and letting her take this home run ball away that he rightfully caught from his 10-year-old son, and getting, you know, and so there's a lot of debate on how that should have been handled. And, you know, in the end, everyone's hating on this woman, like her life is miserable right now. People are just you know crapping on her big time, and then you know, the the kid ends up getting assigned baseball bat from a Phillies player and whatnot, which if I'm going to be really honest about this situation, I don't like the way any of it was handled. I I think the man should have been a man, and he should have stood up and said, I caught this ball fair and square, I'm giving this to my son, and my son's keeping it, and period, and just you know, told her that and basically get out of my face. Um, but the fact that he gave in was a little emasculating, in my opinion, and um I don't think it's a good lesson for his son. People are saying it was a good lesson for his son just to get out of that situation, but that's to me, that's not how a man operates, and that's not how you teach a boy to grow up and become a man, and and I'm and I almost really dislike the fact that he was rewarded for it by giving a signed back because I just think the whole thing was handled wrong. So I was gonna get your take on it, but you you really don't know much about it.

SPEAKER_01:

My my thoughts are one, like uh I always like wonder this, like, first off, not being there. Like, I I don't know, like, was she like, hey, my kid has like a health issue and like they're drunk.

SPEAKER_00:

No kids, she just it was just it was hit to her section and she thought it was rightfully her ball because that's where she was sitting.

SPEAKER_01:

My my question that is always if it was like a dude who walked up and asked the same age as the guy who caught the ball, would you have given it to him? If no, then I don't know if you should just cater to any like I think you should just have the same standard across the board. Like if I walked up, well, I don't know how old he was. Let's imagine mine's like, hey man, that ball was hit to my section, I want that ball. I imagine he'd probably punch me, right? Like, yeah. I'm not saying he should not say that should be the case, but my thought is like take your pick, regardless of gender, regardless of belief, and just say, like, and listen, that that is a fair whoever catches that ball gets that ball. I mean, how many baseball games have we watched to see like I don't know how I miss this, but like it's it's a fair game. Whoever catches that ball, it doesn't matter if they ran from like the next section up, if they get it, then like more power to them. If anything, I've always respected watching the videos of people who can run down like 30 flights of stairs and get it before small scan. Like, I respect it. I think it's good. So um, yeah, I think that the listen, I think it takes the purity away the game to even have people like debating it. But yeah, I I the lesson itself, I don't think you just give in to what people want because they're angry. I think that that's part of the problem with I don't mean to get political, but where the world is today, or at least maybe our country in many ways, like just because someone's mad doesn't mean that we should do everything they want to do.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, I I I respect and understand that you're running a business, and you know, it's a little I'm you know, for me, I just get to be authentically me, and either people like me or don't like me. So that's how life goes. I learned a long time ago, I'm not going to persuade someone. I would rather someone hate me for who I truly am than like me for someone that they think I am that I'm well said.

SPEAKER_03:

Very well said.

SPEAKER_00:

So so I just am real about that stuff. And I, as a 52-year-old man, and uh how old are you, Alex?

SPEAKER_01:

37. Sorry. I said I had to really think about it. I'm sorry. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I I I was just trying to see, you know, how long you've been in this world. But um, I'm I'm watching a shift in masculinity that is not good for the world. And what I mean by that is I understand there is unhealthy masculinity, right? Abusing people, you know, hitting women. Yeah, I'm strongly opposed to those things, just toxic masculinity in general. But there's also good masculinity, and that's standing up for things that are right, which make the world a better place. And to me, this baseball situation is where masculinity, not toxic, real masculinity, should have took place and been upheld to put this woman in her place, and it wasn't. Not only was it not done by the father, it to me it's a terrible lesson for the son that now he thinks is going to be the way to behave in life because he was rewarded for that behavior. So it's sad to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I you know, like I'm I've never been the guy who's like been the the best at this topic for me. Like, like you said, like I just believe in standing up for myself and believing up for standing up for others that don't have like a a voice. Yes. At the same time, being willing to make peace where it matters. So like or where where like yeah, where it maybe maybe even doesn't matter as much, right? Like, I'm I'm willing to say, okay, like there's certain things that are my ego in play, and that's probably like the the masculinity that we don't really need, like when it's all ego-based, right? So it's like, hey, if there's no harm in this, like, fine. Like, I I can think back to my early 20s. I loved to win every argument I was in. Like, I just loved it. And now, like, I I don't really care. I'm like, you know what, this this doesn't matter. Like, it's okay. I can be, I can, I can use this just to to to help bring peace to a situation where it doesn't matter. I will stand my ground, hold my peace, but I don't need to like I don't need you to change your mind, right? And so I I think that in general, people like standing up for what they believe in, I think is really important, but not being so quick to cave and to cater. And uh whether we call that masculiny, whatever, whatever, literally, whatever you want to call that. I just think in general, people need to like stand up. But I specifically, I do think that men have been under attack with that um in more recent times. And that I'm way out of my jurisdiction of what I even know much about, so I can't give much more comment on that because I've not thought too much about it, but I do see that quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's fine. I you know, I'm I I want to say my piece while we're having this conversation, and and so uh I as someone who has been in two branches of the service, and and I was a cop and one of them, you know, the world or our country is not going to be policed by anyone really except our own people. Obviously, when people break laws and things like that, that's when the law enforcement comes into play. But just in everyday life, the way we uh treat each other and behave, we have to police each other. And and one of the biggest problems that we have in our society is people caving to other people because they're just a little bit nastier or meaner, and um you know, like you were saying, you have to stick up for that, you have to defend that. People have to understand that that's not okay, and we're trending in the wrong direction on that, is what I'm getting to. So I just wanted to say my piece on that. So enough about that. Uh, so let's move on to uh pod match and where you're currently at. So, how did this evolve? How what made you get to the point to to where you said I think it would be a good idea to create um a website where podcast guests and hosts can come together and meet?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'll uh briefly fill in the gap here of like that that aerospace career because it kind of segues right into it. So uh I did 15 years in big corporate. I worked my way up from that part-time receiving clerk guy who was taking out trash and breaking down boxes. Eventually, I left the company. Um it's publicly traded, multi-billion dollar company. I was in the C-suite of that company, which I'm extremely grateful for. Youngest guy by a long shot sitting at that table. Uh, but I'll never forget it was year 13 of my 15 year career there. And uh one of I was overseeing five divisions of the company, and one of them, we did something really good where we saved like 10% in our margin, and that set like it was a big deal. I walked straight to my CEO's office, he was just right down the hall from me, and uh I was like, Hey, did you see see the numbers? And then he just goes, Yeah, I saw them. I can hear like the distress in his voice. I was like, Well, you know we like saved 10% on that, right? He's like, Yeah, yeah, no, I know, I saw it, I saw it. I just kind of put up my hands, I'm like, what's wrong? He's like, Man, we didn't tell the shareholders, the board, like we didn't tell people we're gonna do that. And you see, at this point, the company had just become public. And this was like my first big move. I used to do that stuff a lot, but now there was red tape, and now there was people we had to report to. Now there was all kinds of factors that I had never considered before. Turns out that just didn't sound attractive to me anymore. When I left his office, I wasn't necessarily in trouble. It was just kind of like something he's like, hey, we gotta talk about this before we do it. It was the first time that building that my walk back to my office felt long. And it wasn't. It was right down just a couple offices down from his. And I sat down, looked out the window, and just knew that like at that point, I think it I thought it was time to move on. And so again, this was year 13. I just started doing little side hustles. Like I applied myself. One thing that I like to always remind people of, and I think it's an important part of my story, is my last year there, my 15th year, was my best year I ever had there. Because I believe the way you end one season is the way you start the next. I wanted to start on a good foot with whatever I did next, so I wanted to end that way. And so for me, I was doing side hustles, but I was still being very faithful with my job, and I tried a handful of things, discovered podcasting, fell in love instantly, Brandon. Like loved it, loved to listen to them, loved to record them. I started speaking at all the conferences and stuff like that, and I'll never forget it was actually the start of my last year at the company. So it was uh it was January 2020, before the whole world shut down that year, which I obviously happened, right? Uh, there's about 2,000 people, all podcasters, together in Orlando, Florida. And I was on stage, and I remember when I got off after I was done speaking, I just said, hey, or right before I got off, I said, hey, anyone who's willing to talk to me for me, I'd just love to hear what you got going on in podcasting. And I talked to hundreds of people that day, and I was just taking notes. And what I kept on hearing was the same thing. I'm having trouble finding the right guest or booking the whole booking process of getting a guest on my show is there's a lot of admin work. I kept on hearing this, and I heard a bunch of things that day, but I heard that 100 times. Yeah, and that's what I went home with. I basically went home and I whiteboarded this thing. I was still a corporate guy, so I had giant whiteboards in my wall. So I like whiteboard every corner of that thing, like put out the idea, and at the very bottom corner, I wrote these words like a dating app, but instead of connecting people for dates, connecting them for podcast interviews. And I was like, that's the idea. Like the dating app scene has done a really good job of connecting people for dates. Or as far as I know, Brandon, I've been married too long to have ever used one, but from what I'm told from friends, it works well.

SPEAKER_00:

By the way, no mention of this beautiful, great wife of yours in your story.

SPEAKER_01:

So not yet. So uh anyway, so I'll get to that in a moment. So um, anyway, that's what we decided to build. Podmatch literally connects podcast guest notes for interviews. It matches the right people together to be a good conversation, handles most of the administrative work. And uh I was I was like, okay, this is a side hustle I'm gonna pursue. I tried a couple of little things that like nothing like software. I got I did some coaching stuff, did some web design stuff, just things that I thought were fun, blogging, like things I enjoyed. But this was like, okay, this is this could be real. So I immediately was like, I can't do it alone. So I made one phone call and I walked into the other room for my other person I wanted on the team. So uh first call was uh my friend Jesse, who's a software developer, pitched the idea to him. He loved it. I was like, great, I got a software developer. I'm like, but I need a like genius, like member support person, operations expert. So I walked into the room where my wife, Alicia, happened to be, and uh, she had sold a company that she started six months before this. And so she was like, hey, I'm gonna take a little bit of time off. And so anyway, I just kind of was like, hey, what do you think of this idea? I'm like, you want to be a partner in this company? And she's like, yeah, that sounds great. She was like, if you're doing it, let's do it. So the three of us, uh, my wife and my business partner, Jesse, the three of us just hit the ground running. And that was March 10th, 2020. And on June 15th, 2020, we launched the product, and on December 7th, 2020, was my last day in corporate. And uh, so Alicia and Jesse, they both actually went full-time with it a lot sooner than I did. And I will say now, I would not have even left corporate that quick if it weren't for Alicia's, my wife, her support uh along the way. She gave me a huge amount of confidence knowing that we were making a right decision. I was terrified to leave corporate after 15 years. Like all the perks, the benefits, right? All those things uh they add up. And so I was so I wasn't nervous to tell the job I was leaving. I was nervous to tell Alicia I was thinking about leaving. But uh again, that support that she gave me, I cannot express how much that did for me. And just because she knew the business, she was already working it. She was like, Yes, dude, this is good. Like, let's make it happen. So um that's kind of like that whole story of like leaving corporate again. December 7th, 2020 was was my last day in corporate. And I I Cried my way out the door. It was a lot of emotions that day, but since then have not looked back. And I I definitely had something good, but now I have something great. It was a sacrifice. It was a calculated risk, calculating that good for the sake of potential great. And I again am so grateful to have made that jump. And Alicia really helped me with that confidence a lot.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and that's that's a great story. I didn't know you've probably told it before, probably multiple times, but um I didn't know it. I hadn't heard it anywhere yet. And uh what you guys have built is incredible, and what I love about it is um, you know, I see all the the podcast hosts and guests you have on the the site, so you have a lot of people. I don't know the numbers, but um the fact that you guys are giving back is the part that uh is the part I really truly respect because you guys could just have this site and you could charge a subscription for people to connect, and I'm sure people would be pretty happy with hey, I I have good guests and I'm I'm happy to get these good guests, but you guys give back for people doing that, and I really respect that a lot. One of the things I wanted to ask you is is how did you guys come up with that design?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, when we first launched, we we didn't have that design, and and that wasn't until a little bit later, but what you're talking about we call it like our pod value initiative, and basically we pay podcast hosts that are using the platform every time they're booking a guest, they're they're getting a part of our profit. And that kind of happened because I was talking to some people that were leaving the platform. At one point, I had like a booking link, like when people left early on, which now I realize was like maybe a mistake and how fast they're gonna grow. But uh, anytime someone was leaving, I was like, hey, here's a link, can we just talk for a few minutes? And so what what I found is occasionally there was people that really just didn't like it, and that's of course perfectly fine. There, and most people give us ideas on how to improve it, and I love that. But the mass majority of people, and it was over 90%, because we're documenting this on an Excel spreadsheet, over 90% of the time, the problem wasn't that they were quitting PodMatch, they were quitting their podcast altogether. And so, and at first it's shame on me for not asking why. I was just like, oh, okay, well, so sorry to hear that. But then I started saying, okay, well, why are you quitting your podcast? And there wasn't a handful of reasons, but the main one was was budgetary, was that hey, it's cost me$25 a year, and my family just that's an expensive hobby in our family. Yeah, I'm like, okay, so$25 a month expensive hobby. I'm like, I get that. That that can be like that could be a strain on the relationship of your your marriage or your kids' food, right? Like, I get that. And so it was one of those things, it's like, okay, so they were using PodMatch, they had hosting, they had a spot they were recording. Like, I think a lot of people don't realize the cost that goes into it. I said$25, but it costs much more than that, right?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not, I lose hundreds of.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, there's it's a labor of love. There's a lot that goes into it. I mean, I hope your listeners under heard heard that. Like, hundreds per month is what you lose.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But it's something you care about. You're getting that that message out there. And uh I saw the passion and how upset people were when they were leaving. And so I I went to to to well, first off, I prayed about it a lot. I was like, God, is there something here that like I'm missing? And I really felt like this was divinely inspired. Like I wrote it down on paper, and I feel like I it's one of those days where I wrote it down and I don't even remember writing. I just like looked at them like, wait, this is this is really good. My question was how do I pitch this to Alicia and Jesse? You know, like how do you say we're gonna be a company that is supposed to be a for-profit company that gives it back, right? So they were both totally on board immediately. Like, this is absolutely brilliant. Like, yeah, this is good because we can we can be part of the solutions to the problem. There's no podcasting industry without podcasters, and everyone wants to take a little bit of money from podcasters. And I'm like, hold on, maybe maybe we should do something to keep them around, right? Like, let's help them and put some in their pockets. So I listen, no one's ever gonna get rich using PodMatch. As much as I would love for that to happen, I just I I don't see that happening, but at the very least, can we help podcasters offset their production cost? And the answer to that is in some cases, yes. And so we're gonna keep on going until we can get it high enough where it's like, you know what, podcasters more than break even. They can hire a part-time virtual assistant or they can put a little bit of money in their pocket every month. Like, that is our dream, that is our goal. We're getting there every day a little bit closer. We started where I think we were only able to pay like$2. But listen, we we have grown a lot, and that number has multiplied time and time again, and we're just gonna keep on going with that. But that that to me is is part of the mission, the vision behind it is we want to be here to support creators. We're willing to put our money where our mouth is with that. We don't just say we want to support creators, we're actually every month paying people that use use podmatch. And at time of recording this, we're about to break a million dollars back in the hands of podcasters just in the last couple of years. And like, I again the grand scheme of things, maybe that's not a lot, but there's 15,000 or so podcasters using PodMatch. Like, I think that's pretty like I'm happy with it. I sleep well at night knowing we're making an impact.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it is a lot. I mean, because if we're being honest, if we're just talking nuts and bolts here, that's a million dollars you could have kept in your pocket. Uh, but it's not, it's a million dollars you're giving back to people. So I respect that and I appreciate it a lot. Um I I'm trying, you know, I have two podcasts at this point. I have this one and I have my college football one. It's funny when you were talking about uh leaving your your job because it had hit a point. Like the first thing that came in my mind was like Nick Saban and Nil. I don't know if you follow college football at all, but um, you know, nil became a thing in college football, and Nick Saban's like, I'm the getting the hell out of here. This isn't for me anymore. So that's that's what I was thinking of with you in your corporate job when you said that when you had uh you know investors to deal with now. So anyway, I I want to make some money, right? Because I don't want to keep losing money every month. Um and so the idea is in an ideal world I'll break even so I'm not losing any money, but in an amazing perfect world, I could quit my full-time job and do this for a living. Um, you know, but that would be that would be like the dream, right?

SPEAKER_01:

So you know, I will say don't ever don't ever underestimate how much your listeners care. Um, I don't know if there's currently like a Patreon or a way for people to support the show, but I'm not telling you to do this, Brandon. I know we're like we're we're we're live, right? So like I'm not saying not gonna go too deep into the weeds of like setting all that up, but I imagine there's someone hearing this today that probably willing to drop you a little bit just to say thank you for the impact you're having on their life. I've seen that time and time again. It's just a matter of us host making a way for that to happen. So um I'm sure I'm not the only person who's heard your podcast and learned something from it, who would happily be like, Yeah, for sure I'd love to support this. So that's just my two cents.

SPEAKER_00:

No, yeah. I mean, I I get what you're saying. I I would like to believe the same thing, but at the end of every episode, um, you know, I do tell people to go to brandonheld.com and subscribe to the podcast. It does give me 10 bucks a month um if you do that. But uh honestly, only one person has done it, and that's my one of my best friends. So so I do get I have that call to action every show, and people just aren't doing it for whatever reason, and that's okay. I'm staying patient, and you know, I just keep doing the call to action, and hopefully someday it'll take off.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I think it will. I think it's a matter of just remaining consistent with that. So I'm glad you have that, Brandon. That's really cool to hear. It's good.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so uh all right, Alex. Um, I really appreciate everything you've said and brought to the show today, even the way you started, thank you, veterans and stuff. I really appreciate that. And what I would like to do is give you an opportunity to give people your your biggest nugget, your best piece of advice that if you had an opportunity just to say one thing to people, how would you what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for for this for this audience specifically, uh I I've been thinking about this quote a lot, and I think it'd be really good here. So that it might not be conventional that most people share, but I want to share because I think it'll be really helpful. But it's this this idea of what got you to where you are today will not get you to where you want to go tomorrow. What got you here today won't get you where you want to go tomorrow. And I I think in my life, when I look at that idea and that quote, you just it all it means is I can't keep on doing the same thing over and over again expecting to yield the same return. There's an idea, the law of diminishing return, but it's also you grow to a certain point. Like if I go to the gym and I'm lifting the same amount of weight every day, at some point I stop developing muscle because I've done all I can with that. I need to up the weight, I need to change the workout, right? What got you to where you are today, whether that be your relationship, your business, the joy that you have in your life, something has to change. And I think that too many of us, we just get comfortable and we get complacent and we don't step back and look at our lives from like a 5,000 or 10,000 foot view and say, you know what, it's time for me to change something. And for me, sometimes that meant cutting out some relationships in my life, or at least kind of distancing a little bit. It meant not watching the same TV shows I was watching, it meant watching out for my influences, it meant going to the gym more often, right? Like it can mean some things like this, but I think that all of us have to be willing to say, you know what, I'm gonna get comfortable with being uncomfortable. I'm gonna challenge the status quo of my own life because where I want to go tomorrow, what I'm doing today will not get me there. So I need to make that change. So that's what I'm gonna leave everybody with today is what guide where you are today won't get you where you want to go tomorrow. I encourage you, be proactive in your life, take charge, and build the life that you actually want.

SPEAKER_00:

Now that's that's great advice, and and to follow that up. Uh I couldn't agree more. I, you know, I have an MBA and and I don't like being stagnant in life, and I'm constantly looking for what's my next thing to grow and evolve and be better. And um that's what a how this podcast came about, and then later B my college football podcast, but also like I'm I'm looking at taking like this seven-month AI course. Somehow I need I want to squeeze this into my life, so um, you know, you get some type of actual college accreditation for it, and um, some type of I don't know if it's a certification or a degree or what it is, but just always thinking forward, always trying to grow and be better and improve and and look look at what the world's doing and see how you can make it better for yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

That's good, man. I'm I'm excited to see where that takes you, actually. Uh I I I love it. Like you're literally you're just talking about applying exactly what I just said. So that's good's cool to hear, man. I'm I'm I'm really excited for you. That's gonna be cool.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks, man. And yeah, I'm 52. You're never too old to learn. Keep learning, keep learning, keep growing. We won't finish on that note because I did want to bring up another topic because you you brought it up in your final note, and um that is fitness, right? Um, I'm I'm a huge fan of fitness in weightlifting. Um, you know, I'm a I'm a brute. I don't really care so much about cardio or um, you know, trying to uh run the fastest anymore now that I'm 52. When I was young, I played sports, I played receiver and football, I played shooting guard and basketball. It was a different time, but now that I'm older, I just want to be a monster. Like I want people to look at me and be afraid of me when they look at me.

SPEAKER_03:

I love it, dude. I love it.

SPEAKER_00:

Even though inside I'm a teddy bear, right? But on the outside, you don't you don't need to know that you need to look at me and think, I don't want to mess with that dude, right? So that's all I care about. But there are so many great benefits to fitness, both mentally and emotionally, but also physically and how you feel about yourself. And I just wanted you to take an opportunity to say what fitness does for you and means to you in your life.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so the the first four years of PodMatch, I listen, everybody, like I I quit, I quit a job, like we weren't bringing income. Like when I quit, like we just could see the trajectory of it happening. So I had to cut expenses everywhere I could, including gyms, everything like that. And over four years I lost 10 pounds, which doesn't sound like a lot, but I'm the guy that when I don't work out, I get skinnier. I know some people that makes them mad to hear, but the reality is it's just as much a struggle as anything else. Like you just get skinnier, and that's not healthy. And so for me, I was getting like really skinny, and when I hit that 10 10 pound mark, I was like, man, I I'm uncomfortable in my own skin. I can feel that I'm not healthy. And so I made an investment at that point, and thankfully we started bringing in a little bit of money where I was able to do that. I I I'm proud to announce that like in eight months, I I guess it's six months, I put the 10 pounds back on and and and a little bit more even now. And um, because this is just a year ago. And uh it has changed my level of creativity, my energy, the the ability to get into a really hard task and actually from start to finish complete it without having to take a break. Listen, sure, I look better, I I put that weight back on, that's all that's all fine and great. But the end of the day, my energy being up, my ability to focus, like all those things are the little things that maybe we just take for granted with it. But fitness can often be the thing that can get you through a tough time. And so for me, it wasn't necessarily a tough time, but it was leveling up my ability to lead the company that has grown. Again, what got me where I was was not working out. What got me where I need to go was actually starting to work out. And so I encourage everybody, like, take it seriously, think about it. It goes a really long way.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and it and we often want to be careful about you know, we're so body aware in America that um we're almost too forgiving, in my opinion. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that when I look better, I feel better. It's okay to be a little vain and be honest about that. When you when you look better, you feel better, and that carries over into everything you're doing in life. And yeah, the fitness does all the things you talked about, the clarity in your mind and the dopamine rush and the energy it gives you, and it's the endless amount of benefits you get from fitness, but also feeling good is looking good as a part of feeling good, and I think that's not something people should be ashamed to admit and talk about.

SPEAKER_01:

I agree, man. I think that's it's important for us all.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, I'm you know, not to brag, I'm just saying this is the reality of my situation, right? I'm 52, I have a beautiful 28-year-old wife, and I'm not sad about that. I'm happy about that, right? And if I was slovenly and didn't take care of myself or whatever the case may be, that probably wouldn't be the case. And um, you know, so it's okay to use fitness to help you feel better about yourself, and and that's the point I want to get out there.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure is, man. It's a good way to good way to wrap this up. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks. Uh all right, Alex. It's it's been an honor to have you on my show, and um this will be the first video episode of my video shows, so that'll be that'll be an exciting release when that day comes. And uh for my listeners, we already you know talked about it a little bit ago. Um, if you are a podcaster or you want to be a guest on podcasts, go to podmatch.com and sign up. But first of all, that's step one. My show has changed dramatically because of Alex and his site, and I really am so glad that he f well you found me. I don't know if you know this, but your people emailed me and said, Hey, we that was me. Yeah, is that you? Yeah, that was me. Okay, I don't have people who do that. That's me. All right, I didn't know okay. Well, so it was it was signed, Alex San Filipo, but I didn't yeah, I didn't know if it was actually you or your representative, so that's that's cool.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't have anyone do outreach for me. It's all me. If you get an email from me or a message from me, it's unless Alicia, she'll sign it if it's Alicia, but um just me and her handle all the communication. That's really we're like very much so founder-led type of uh company. We like our communication to be from us. So it was me.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there you go. So all right, so I'm glad you found me because once I went to your site and and signed up, it it's everything's been totally different and it's been awesome. So um, and then like I alluded to, go to brandonhell.com, subscribe to my podcast. If you feel like you know, I'm providing good information and you'd like to help support me, uh, you know, at least try to break even in this industry. You know, that'd be great. I'd appreciate that. It's right at the top of the page as soon as you get to the page. And for Alex and Brandon, this has been Brandon Held Life is crazy. And uh I'll talk to you next time.

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Brandon Held

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